Alex Avanth comes back on the show to dive deep into an organic conversation including topics such as the Olympics and Simone Biles, what it means to have opinions and whether they’re helping by themselves, what love’s role is in solving many of the challenges humanity currently faces, tools and vocabulary we may be missing to put better plans in action to address those challenges, and his personal concept of “outcalm”.
If you want to jump to the meat of the conversation, it’s around 34 minutes in.
Listen to his previous episode “The Bullshit Bingo Of The Dating World” here: https://bit.ly/3fGln7p
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Clément: [00:00:00] Hello there and welcome to another episode of unleashed love global young. And I’m your host. And today I’m talking with Alex, Avanth, he’s a good friend of mine from . I lived in Manila in the Philippines, and he’s actually done an episode prior to this, with his girlfriend, Lisa, which is called the bullshit bingo of the dating world.
It’s episode number seven. And I highly recommend you check that one out. These kinds of conversations, these chats that I’m doing are invaluable. If you’re not having these conversations, then listen into this one. We joke around a lot, but we do get really serious with topics like the Olympics. And what’s happened with Simone Biles.
We talk about what it means to have an appeal. What our definition of love is universal basic income. We talk about the current situation politically, economically in the world and how we can create tools and methods to have as much practical, [00:01:00] positive impact as possible. We talk about the concept of outcoming as Alex puts it instead of outperforming.
And if you want to jump to the most interesting part, it’s around 37 minutes in. So I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you do, please leave a rating and review in the apple podcast platform. Because every single one we get helps us reach a wider audience without further ado. Let’s jump right in and I’ll see you on the next one.
My internet here sucks, man. It’s like a satellite connection. I think the maximum upload speed is one megabit per second. And so that’s why, you couldn’t even hear me before. And they said here that they were going to install fiber in a month’s time. And that was like a month and a half ago.
And apparently here, everything is very Manyana, kind of thing. I’m in caddies in the south of Spain. Cathy’s
Alex: [00:01:55] okay, nice. And you got a place there
Clément: [00:01:57] or how does that work? It’s really nice. Yeah. [00:02:00] For, since I was like 16, yeah, maybe 18. My family have my father actually specifically her has been in real estate in Spain, in the south of Spain.
Right now we have a family home here in in a place called , which is like really on the border between Cadiz and mine. Okay. And Mar Bayer is just next door in Malaga side. And it’s nice. It’s a nice place, man. It’s it’s a pretty shitty day, but it’s it’s got at the moment. It’s like
Alex: [00:02:36] nice.
Holy shit, man. Yeah, it’s beautiful here. Gorgeous. The,
Clément: [00:02:42] I was just telling someone yesterday, I think it was Joel actually. Joel Joel and Michael Joel. I was telling him like, cause they were like, oh, we’re thinking of coming to Spain. And I said, yeah, cool. Let’s do it. And he said, is that I think it’s wakeboarding there.
And I said, I’m not sure about wakeboarding, but definitely golf. And then he just laughed. [00:03:00] So I assume he’s not a golf person.
Alex: [00:03:03] I would kill to see Joel in a pair of golf shorts. That’s I think it’s going to happen with as well.
Clément: [00:03:12] It’s that, it’s the next level cool evolution of him.
Exactly the academy and start wandering around golf courses. But yeah, that’s been an interesting evolution to see them. Cause I, I met them when they first got to Manila. And I remember we went, I was with my ex-girlfriend and we went up to the top of triune towers where the, when you could still go on the roof at that point, like it wasn’t shut off to the public.
And there was a beautiful view from the top because you could see the whole of the city, or you could see the whole of the golf course around the back. We took a couple of bottles of wine up there and we just sat and we all talked about stuff. It was really nice. And it’s just been fantastic, man, to see their evolution as a couple and how they stuck together.
Through, some challenges, I guess every relationship has challenges, but like they’ve been really practical and [00:04:00] smart. I think about the whole thing. And now they have a kid and now they have a dog. Everything looks great from the outside, but I, I’m pretty sure it’s good from the inside too.
Alex: [00:04:08] We think everybody has their challenges. Yeah. In Denmark, we say once you get into the, we call it Villa Volvo and vose, which means villa is. obviously a villa. Volvo is a, it’s a car, a reliable and vose is dog. So it’s like a check mark of the three things into suburban standard. But it’s also, it’s a benchmark for, I guess you can call it the thresholds of happiness, right?
It’s like a, once you choose those commitments, you can’t just leave again and go out and do your crazy shit.
Clément: [00:04:44] It is a commitment for sure man, even a dog is a commitment, to be honest with you. Like I had a dog with an ex girlfriend and the dog was two years old by the time we broke up and it was really challenging to figure out what we were going to do.
Cause she went back to Hong Kong. [00:05:00] So I just ended up taking the dog. Not that I didn’t want to, it was like, now the onus is on me now it’s my responsibility. And honestly, bro, I tried to I tried to do it the whole father of the dog thing, leave the dog at home, come back after work and stuff.
And I I couldn’t manage it. It was not, it wasn’t good for the dog and it wasn’t good for me. So I ended up just eating the dog in the end. No, I’m joking. I didn’t have a dog. I I know I’m half Chinese. Just give me a break.
Alex: [00:05:28] That was great delivery.
Clément: [00:05:31] Yeah. Otherwise I’m doomed. Just fucking canceled my own brand. Yeah. I gave the dog to a farm nearby and it was loved it too. It was a fucking responsibility. Have you ever had a pet? A
Alex: [00:05:44] dog? Oh man. Yeah, I’ve had multiple. Actually I had, my first girlfriend was the same thing. Right then there was, I guess dark is the closest thing I’ve ever experienced to unconditional love.
That’s that’s the great thing about that bloody [00:06:00] animal, but Julie pleaded, that it took more damage based on the breakups and any other part of that relation. So it’s a, I can relate to the idea of having to say goodbye and also just understanding that a dog is not an accessory, right?
There’s no accessory to your relationship to yourself. There’s just the responsibility that you’re now taking over life.
Clément: [00:06:26] That’s it? Yeah. Life which is one of the reasons why I’m so weirded out by the fact that generally speaking, it’s so easy to buy a dog, it’s so easy to buy any kind of pet that requires constant care and maintenance and.
I think most people would probably shouldn’t have dogs. I don’t know. I mean that’s not based on any data, but I feel like many people shouldn’t have dogs or pets because they’re not in a position where they can give the dog or the pet a [00:07:00] good life. And I don’t know why we don’t have more.
Why don’t we have more tests for that? Or like at least barriers of entry?
Alex: [00:07:09] You can say the same for children, right? Mean, I think the, I think I’ve heard more people are you with that statement? And if you were placed dog with children and that would hold more truth in modern society and not basis, it’s poor dog.
It’s basically just, you have absolutely no idea of what’s needed to raise a kid. It’s as crazy commitment as well. I read this interesting. Maybe it was you who shared it as usual shared it. And I read an article regarding mothers notice the Danish article. Yeah. It was the Danish article regarding mothers regretting the choice of having a child in the position of them.
Too long, didn’t read. I regret having a child because now the focus is not on me anymore. And that statement is just pure. It’s a boot, but you can’t say that there’s absolutely no acceptance of such a state in modern society. Acid perhaps should be to some extent, but at the [00:08:00] same time, knowing can prepare you to have children.
And I don’t know how I feel about it. I would very much like to have children, but I also am happy. I haven’t had children, at least to my knowledge. I haven’t had children until this point.
That’s all I can say. I don’t know. Maybe if it’s being stupid,
let’s not forget. That’s going
Clément: [00:08:33] to be the highlight. I’m going to my
Alex: [00:08:38] mama’s out there. Who has something else to say? But as I was saying, it’s just, I think the whole decision of what it takes to race, whether it be a dog goldfish childhood, it all comes under the same cone, which is you are not going to be necessarily as much in focus anymore as you were before that choice.
Clément: [00:08:59] Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00] It is taboo. I really like it when people say things that are taboo as well. It shows me that they’re well, when they say it in the right way, you can say something that’s provocative for the sake of provoking and that’s probably not a very nice thing to do. So when there’s no malice and it’s something that you’re just genuinely sharing because you don’t want to be in genuine then I, I really respect that.
And we see a lot of that happening with people like Jordan Peterson, who’s willing to go up, 50 cups with the media and and pundits when he talks about things that, for some reason we hadn’t talked about for quite some time and we hadn’t really addressed. And a lot of it is to do with strength and weakness.
What constitutes a healthy society. And so it’s it’s a lot of ego destruction that happens within those kinds of conversations. And so whenever anyone talks about something to do, it’s whoa, [00:10:00] you’ve got balls or you’ve got ovaries or whatever you want to say. And the reason why I’m saying that I corrected myself because I actually said that a woman had just recently.
And I realized, oh my God, why am I saying that a woman has balls? That’s a,
Alex: [00:10:13] it’s not a, I realize that before there was an out-call of you being right.
Clément: [00:10:19] Yeah. And I have to now interject myself every time I say, but just even this thing that’s happened with Simone Biles, bless her. I feel for her, so I don’t
Alex: [00:10:28] actually, I’ve seen some posts.
I don’t actually know what the hell has happened there. Can you just give me.
Clément: [00:10:34] Yeah. She pulled out of the Olympics because, and she was actually like in mid event and she was having some trouble, she was off balance and everything, and she decided to call it quits because of her mental health, because of her mental situation.
And she made that decision. And I don’t think that it was the wrong decision to make if that’s what she wanted to [00:11:00] needed that at that moment, then I think that was the right decision to make for her. But there’s this whole online dilemma at the moment. And to a massive conversation, it’s trending where you’ve got one side that are saying, this is ridiculous.
Like you shouldn’t be pulling out of the Olympics during your event. This is representing your country and blah, blah, blah. You’re part of a team. And then there’s the other side, which is the more individualist side, which is like, She’s her own person. She has the right to do that. And if she feels like she can’t do what she’s supposed to do at risk of injuring herself, then it’s, that’s the right thing to do.
And we support her and I can see both sides of the argument actually. And what I think is damaging though, and this is my opinion now, so we’re talking about, this is my taboo conversation. This is my taboo opinion. It’s that, although I understand what Simone is saying she’s dealing with.
Cause I can’t, I haven’t actually, I’m not her. So she’s probably feeling so many things that I [00:12:00] don’t understand. Although I support the fact that she w she feels necessary to that. I also recognize that we, for some reason, as a group, there is a group of humans that want to celebrate, celebrate that kind of failure.
And it is a failure, right? It’s not necessarily her failure. It could be the failure of the USA team in general, because if that person was feeling that way to that point, there was something that maybe could have happened to help her more. Maybe there was more support that was needed. Maybe they should have spotted it earlier.
Maybe the culture’s all fucked up, which wouldn’t be a surprise to me, to be honest with you. Maybe there’s something wrong with just Olympics in general or any kind of competitive sport at the international level. So it’s a failure, but it’s not necessarily a failure of the person. But I don’t think we should be celebrating failure.
Like you see, there’s a lot of people that are saying we’re so proud of you and so proud of this [00:13:00] behavior. But they’re missing the entire point in my opinion, which is that there’s a child, there’s a problem here. There’s a challenge that needs to be resolved or overcome. And it’s not to do with her it’s to do with the system to do with whatever, got her to that point in the first place.
And so rather than celebrate what’s happening, we can recognize it and we can say, good for her. I, but I I just feel like we’re focusing on the wrong thing and it’s unfortunately I think it could be it could be like a negative net. Effect on how we deal with challenges moving forward.
If this is how we’re going to address whatever happens at that level. And we’re going to miss the point, I feel like it’s going to happen more and more. And I feel like we’re just going to start with, we’re going to start to see more of this failure. And and I think that’s not necessarily a good thing.
I don’t know. That’s just my thoughts. So there’s,
[00:14:00] Alex: [00:14:01] there’s two things I hear you say here. One is relating to the subject Simone’s decision to quit. And the other point is related to the circumstances, not only off which she quit within the Olympics, but also the general understanding of what it means for someone to call it quits in a situation.
I’m guessing one side of the equation says that’s just not a possibility, right? So there’s that crossing that barrier of mental health, being a reason for us to quit. And another saying that recent is not supposed to exist, right? It’s the Olympic games. It’s either you win or you lose, like there’s no quitting happens before the Olympics.
That’s how we find out the people not to include in the Olympics. That’s the ones who quit, but not the
Clément: [00:14:59] one [00:15:00] part of that conversation actually is just being really logical about the situation that you’re in and saying, okay, I’m here at the Olympics and I’m performing. And I represent my country and my team, whatever that means to you.
Cause I feel like it doesn’t mean as much as it used to anymore, for whatever reason, then that’s fine. But Yeah, I think that’s also part of the conversations, a very difficult conversation to have actually. And but yeah, sorry to clarify. Yeah, that, that could be part of what I’m saying as well. I think it is.
Alex: [00:15:31] And because then it’s difficult to have an opinion, right? Because you can have an opinion about Simone and her reasons, but you can also have an opinion on the general environment of which Simone exists, which is perhaps the one that is allowed. We can have a, almost like cultural discussion of what it means to know that you are at your limit.
Because assuming that a person like Simona any one of us, we should have a threshold from which we say [00:16:00] until here I no longer, because the consequences of proceeding from this point, encourage a higher cost than we can afford. But that cost is something. Perhaps will never allow us to pursue this again, because that, that, that would be that ideal condition to call it quits, but nothing that is a blurred line because we don’t know and we burn out or we, we break down or we injure ourselves.
And assuming that, I mean that, that’s also the, that’s what I would assume with this condition, sees a sports woman chosen by the committees of whatever, choose people in the Olympic games. But I would assume that’s people who know exactly what they’re looking for. They have chosen people who know this, these are like the best bloody sports people in the world.
So they know where the limit goes. And if that limits have been crossed, then they should have put all jurisdiction rights to call the [00:17:00] quits. It doesn’t matter what the fuck people say about, oh, it’s for the country. Now, if that’s not the case, that’s my, that can be a hypothesis that she.
Is he young?
Clément: [00:17:10] How old is she? Yeah, I think so. I’m gonna check now. Simone Biles, age 20 is 24. So she’s very young actually. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex: [00:17:21] So and so that can be where the finger pointing comes to as well. She does know. She can pressure herself more, but honestly, I couldn’t care less about that.
Assuming that the conditions for where she was chosen to wear ideal, she’s a sports woman. She knows her limits as all of us. There is a reason for us to say, no, I think no is a strong word. That’s not used enough. So and that goes for all of us, right? That’s, it goes for me and you as well.
I think we’ve talked about as well that no is something we need to get very comfortable about saying, but any condition where no comes forth is usually a condition that’s uncomfortable. And usually a condition. That strives towards us turning that no, into a [00:18:00] yes. Yes. I can do this project. Yes. I want to have you as a friend.
Yes. I can take more work. Yes. I can take less pay. In order for us to be accepted. I don’t think that’s the case, but it’s not reason to be accepted by others. And it doesn’t matter if you’re an athlete or whatever.
Clément: [00:18:17] It’s just such a shame that it got to that fever pitch, where she was literally competing in an event in a heat or whatever you want to call it.
It’s it’s unprecedented. I think, that’s why it’s such a controversy right now. And it’s just such a shame that had to happen. And I see it as a huge failure, not again, not because of her, but just because, she’s young, right? She’s just a kid. She has a kid I’m 38 years old and I still don’t know.
What I’m doing. Yeah. So she’s 24. I can remember when I was 24, I have fucking idiot. I didn’t know what I was doing. And for her to be like a champion already, man, and performing it, she was abused sexually by her a [00:19:00] trainer throughout her early teens. And her, no, man. She, this guy went to prison I think because he was actually not just molesting her, but he was molesting a bunch of other.
Olympic kids. And he was the top trainer at the
Alex: [00:19:18] time. I’d say, go outside. Come on. Just one second.
Clément: [00:19:21] Yeah, no worries. He was the top trainer at the time. And so that’s why he was put in that position. And those kids were left with him to train. And it’s the, it’s just the worst abuse of power. And it can, you could say, Hey, this is part of the repercussions of that.
If we don’t keep an eye on people, if we don’t make sure that these kinds of things aren’t happening, I look what can occur because of that. And so I get it, man. I really do get it. And I’ve spoken to quite a few people about this situation because it is an interesting conversation to have we should be having these conversations where I don’t think we should be all just jumping to conclusions about it.
I [00:20:00] think we really need to have a discussion and say what the fuck is really happening here? This is, look I think Here’s something to Buddha say. I think that we are in possibly one of the most existentially challenging times in the history of human kind. Right now we’ve got so many fucking things that are going on globally that threatened our life and every single other form of life on the planet.
And we are, in my opinion, Handicapped. And we are handicapping ourselves by failing to address the underlying problems that are causing failures like this. And you might think fuck, Claremont’s just the Olympics. Yeah. Okay. It is just the Olympics. In fact, the Olympics doesn’t mean anything to me. I don’t actually follow it.
I don’t watch it but when you’re, when that’s supposed to be the epitome of our national potential, that’s supposed to be what represents our nation at that level. [00:21:00] And for this to happen at the Olympics is really noteworthy it outlines, and it highlights a systemic issue, not just within the Olympics, but within our culture.
That we have to resolve. If we’re going to deal with all of these other existential more important things that aren’t so trivial, like climate change, or like the political situation right now, or, just the, the poverty and all of those things. It’s a connotation that’s necessary.
Alex: [00:21:31] impossible. Okay. Yeah.
I hear what you’re saying, man. I think it’s dangerous to state this as in, how do you say that’s a problem to be solved? Because essentially, I think the reason for why we’re here is because people have been trying to solve all these problems and there are some [00:22:00] enablers in it that has allowed it to come to this point.
Let me ask you this. For example, I hear what you’re saying. When did it.
Clément: [00:22:05] Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m just
Alex: [00:22:08] give me a benchmark. Is it 10 years ago?
Clément: [00:22:12] I guess you could say from one perspective that we’ve had them ever since.
Alex: [00:22:16] Okay. I’m going to, I’m going to challenge you with this thing.
I think there was a time where you ate, started caring and B became informed,
and I think that’s happening to more and more people out there. And now one of the big questions about this is, like caring and being informed. Are we helping change the problem or are we just, voicing our own opinions in a echo chamber of other people.
Clément: [00:22:48] I would really find it weird if we weren’t helping to some degree, like I can see how from both sides, it could be damaging and helpful depending on how you frame it and how you approach it.
[00:23:00] I know that when, certain I’ve had certain advice given to me and I’ve given certain advice that has been more damaging than helpful. So
Alex: [00:23:09] Take it take a public example like, like black lives matters. When I think one of the immediate effects we solve that. And this is the difficult thing about talking about this, that you can, you ever have an opinion that is not like whatnot.
And I’m not to say whether you can or can’t. I just know that there’s a lot of people with opinions about it. And you have, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect? If you Google it you’ll understand it in a second, basically it means that everybody’s an expert. Everybody’s an expert at first, but the further time, the more time you spend on any given subject, the more depth to get into it, and the less you understand yourself as an expert.
And usually it goes like this it’s a spike in your opinion. And then over time it decreases. It never goes to
Clément: [00:23:56] notice that with myself. Definitely noticed that with myself, I’ll have a [00:24:00] very strong reaction to something and I won’t know how to articulate it. And then I’ll think about it for like weeks or months sometimes.
And then I’ll be like, I got it totally wrong at the beginning,
Alex: [00:24:12] GameStop Bitcoin, right? It doesn’t need to be black lives matter everything. And this is wonderful that you never should invest on the basis of the Vancouver. You get in on the hype, then you become very excited about whatever it is, emotional sensation you get from it.
But essentially the more time you spend. The less you understand, because you become more informed and you realize that there’s a depth to the subject.
Clément: [00:24:37] And I think that I love these conversations. That’s why these conversations to me are so important because I feel like this is part of the journey.
Like you said earlier when we were talking before not today, but the other day you mentioned something along the lines of I learned the most, when I have conversations with people, that’s how my brain works. Like I gotta bounce ideas off of people and I’m with you, man. I’m like that [00:25:00] too. Okay.
Alex: [00:25:01] So the hypothesis the same for me and you’re right. It’s I don’t know what’s best for me, but if I’m lucky and I listen to you, you might discover something that is good. So that’s the assessment of Dunning-Kruger on myself. It’s being very judgmental towards other people, having opinions about what’s best for me, because clearly they don’t know.
But the more time I spend on the subject, even on myself The less I realize I know, and I become very, it becomes personal at the beginning, always when someone challenges your belief system or your political opinion or whatever the fuck it might be, it could be anything. Basically you become so vested in it because you’re like I’ve spent so much time defining this point of view.
But literally from that process, I also realized that I actually don’t know that much. I just act in a certain way based on the things I’ve done before. And this will continue to go. So conversations with you gives me the opportunity to listen for things that I didn’t know before, and maybe I knew them before, but you can maybe frame them in a different [00:26:00] way for me.
Clément: [00:26:00] I think that’s probably one of the major aspects of what makes podcasting so popular is that we get to listen to people. Hack it out in a public discussion and they don’t even know what they’re talking about and they admit it. And then at the end, everyone’s a little bit more enlightened. Everyone’s a little bit more clear on hopefully what what we were discussing.
So I don’t know about you, but I think podcasts have been such an essential addition to our culture lately. It’s like we have suffered at the hands of mainstream media for too long now. We needed a an avenue or we could actually have proper discussions about topics like this. You get on mainstream media, you talk about it on the news and you get like 30 seconds to be able to summarize, what it is that you’re actually saying, and it’s just not working like that.
That’s not a very effective way to do it.
Alex: [00:26:58] So the question is then. [00:27:00] What can we, what was the reason we actually set up this call? Because I guess there was something that we wanted to get that in then. Yeah.
Clément: [00:27:06] My growing concern is that we are actually becoming weaker in many ways as a race, into a period of our civilization where we need to be stronger.
And I would like to define that, but I’m trying to figure it out as I talk. I think what I mean is we must rise to the challenges that face us and not everywhere, but in the most developed nations, I feel like we’ve forgotten a lot of what makes us. Strong as as individuals and as a community, more importantly as a community, that’s what it is.
That’s what it is. I feel like forgotten our community and that’s what makes us strong. We’re all individualists now from, not really all of us, but you know what I’m trying to say. That’s a, it’s a prevailing [00:28:00] mindset. Hey, I feel like this. And so therefore I’m going to do it. And there’s almost little to no little to no thought on what kind of impact that would have on the community at large.
So I just, that’s where, that’s what I’m saying. I feel like we need to go into this next stage of our humanity with all, all of the potential power we have at our disposal. And I’m worried because I’m just, I’m not seeing that manifest in leadership or in community in values principles.
I don’t know.
Alex: [00:28:34] I’m curious, man, because you called this podcast, unleash love life. So is the premise that love is something of that solution.
Clément: [00:28:51] Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
Alex: [00:28:53] So is part of the argument here that a missing [00:29:00] component in, I guess all of the problems we have is love.
Clément: [00:29:05] Yeah.
Alex: [00:29:09] Is it the missing component?
Clément: [00:29:17] Yeah. Yeah. I think it is. I actually do think it is. But it manifests in so many different ways, man. It’s you cannot box love into one thing. I w if I criticize someone. But I do it in a thoughtful way. That’s love. And if I’m also compassionate and if I cuddle someone because I feel bad for them or I want them to, I just want to comfort them no matter what, that’s also love too.
It’s like the opposite sides of the spectrum. And I had this interesting thought yesterday, cause I was thinking about all of this, like incessantly and I was thinking to myself, we are supposed to be ridiculed. [00:30:00] We are supposed to experience that at various points in our lives. And it’s okay.
Because if we recognize there’s a, what the reason behind that ridicule is we understand that it’s part of what makes a community. Stronger. It’s the ability to bring to someone in the community, their attention, it’s the ability to bring to their attention. The fact that maybe they’re not operating within the rules that everyone expects them to.
And there may be some need for adjustment there, whether it’s entirely correct or just partially correct. There’s something that probably needs to happen, especially if you’re seeing it in growing number. And it’s not just one person, but it’s like a group or okay. Not always, but the fact that we cannot call people out or we cannot for the sake of keeping our jobs or making sure we still have a platform to, to speak through or that we [00:31:00] keep our friends is a really dangerous, it’s a really dangerous game to be playing because when we cannot assist.
In at least trying to guide behavior back to what’s best for that community. We lose the community. And I, that’s probably a little bit more of a articulated way to verbalize how I feel about what’s happening to more developed nations right now. Because when you look at the less developed nations, they don’t have these problems there.
Their communities are probably stronger than ours. Okay. This is a very small example and it’s just a part of a much bigger puzzle. But I have noticed just in my own experience, that when I live in poor nations, I have noticed that there is a higher level of loyalty and honor, than there [00:32:00] is in more developed nations, I will lose something.
In public, like a passport or a wallet or a phone, and this is a recurring theme and I’m just fucking stupid forgetful and like careless. But I will have that returned to me, or I will find it where I left it in what, where you would expect it to be stolen immediately. And when, in, let’s say Canary war for somewhere in, in a very developed, high, upper market place.
It’s just, it’s not there anymore. No one comes and says, oh, Hey, did you lose this? Or Hey we, we needed to get in touch with one guy chased me for about a week in Metagene in Columbia, a taxi driver, an Uber driver chased me for a week on social media, trying to get in touch me. He was like, you left your wallet.
I got your. I was like, what the fuck is that? You might do Uber. You haven’t stolen it yet. What’s wrong with you? He gave me, came back in the taxi, gave it back [00:33:00] to me yet. He didn’t even ask for anything. I gave him some money. I was like, Hey man, look, thanks for your troubles and stuff. Look, I’m not saying that this is an objective way to look at things, but I’m just from my own perspective, man, there’s something wrong.
Like feel like we, we can learn from each other.
Alex: [00:33:13] There is
there is like a fundamental, as I hear to speak here, there’s a fundamental lack of something that seems to be present. Some places that you’ve encountered in the world and lacking in some other places that not necessarily. It’s not necessarily tied to the societal level. I think because you can find anecdotal examples in both, but there’s a lack, perhaps in whatever it is in the world is what I’m hearing like that, whatever it is has a component of love being part of the solution.
I’m just trying to understand what it is that you are you’re saying here.
Clément: [00:33:52] You asked me if love has anything to do, if you think love is the fundamental thing that’s missing. And I said yes, because I do think that is the [00:34:00] fundamental thing that’s missing, although it can be.
Alex: [00:34:02] Yeah. So here. Good. All right. So I think I get where you’re coming from. So here’s the thing that when you talk about this subject and I think is a helpful way to start. So start structuring the conversation, right? Because essentially I agree. I think love is a great way of working with the subject, but I think there’s in the examples you gave me, you said there’s a way of expressing love.
There’s a way of giving love this way of receiving. I think the fundamentals of love consists of pity. You consist of empathy and they consist of it of compassion, right? If you are to follow that, the Buddhist way, the argument is to rise up against passion in a way of not pursuing it by the Buddhist way is literally a way where you tie your lifestyle to one.
That is not pursuant of complacency, but acceptance of every single moment. And I think [00:35:00] what I got from my experience studying Buddhism was that. passion Seems to be the number one pursuit for everyone in, in, in life right You, if you’re not passionate about something you are losing in life, but passion fundamentally is a combination of suffering, right?
If you are passionate about something, you’re combining suffering into your lifestyle. So if your passion is what you pursue, you choose to suffer on the basis of
Clément: [00:35:28] yourself. What’s up, what is, can you explain? Cause I, I want to understand what is it about passion that leads to suffering?
Alex: [00:35:35] Passion essentially is the pursuit of something.
What it is like a hunger or thirst for something, right? And you’ve heard it multiple occasions passions of the Christ is one of the best references right? Price suffered for us And the Buddhist way of looking at this is to say that you don’t. You can choose not to be passionate, [00:36:00] but it’s not to say that you shouldn’t care.
You should choose compassion. And what passion is the pursuit suffering for myself. Compassion is the pursuit of suffering. The sharing of suffering of all right. So the best way I can explain compassion, actually I developed this little hand just to afford, because I think people have a problem with confusing empathy, compassion, and pity right.
Pity is where I can do it like this. I feel sorry for you. Why Pity is a disconnect from the situation of whoever it is you feel sorry for it’s often something we see on people on the street. Empathy on the other hand is I feel you, I can relate to at least the sensation of your suffering And I can relate to the conditions of where you’re in without saying that I know how you feel compassion is [00:37:00] taking the other person’s hand and having joy and taking them towards whatever it is that you believe that you want to share and share the suffering for them.
Compassion is difficult. Compassion requires that you take responsibility like for a dog we discussed earlier, or for a human being. It is the acceptance that you no longer have to suffer alone because I choose to suffer with you. And that last part compassion can be practiced, but it requires you to take responsibility of another person’s suffering and making it part of your own and that ability, and that responsibility is one that we want to take, but never do.
And I think it’s because we are lacking the ability to come to. Both comprehend and carry our own suffering. So we don’t see any need to carry other people’s because I’m already suffering just like you. So I think those three fundamentals, if you want to [00:38:00] discuss, because I can agree, there’s a lot of problems, but if you want to discuss how we start a conversation with them, you need tools and you need to understand just because you are pitiful and empathic towards someone you’re not practicing compassion.
Clément: [00:38:20] So you’re, so that’s a really interesting way to describe all of that. And I’ve never heard it explained that way before. You’re saying empathy is when you understand someone’s suffering, but you don’t provide any way to there with it to, and To guide that person and to share with them and compassion is taking that with them and helping them to hold that and then leading them in the direction of where they, you think they
Alex: [00:38:44] should be going.
Compassion is the sensation you feel when you’re joyful in helping people in their suffering. And it’s not the condition of their suffering. It’s the condition that you are willing to share with them. [00:39:00] But it’s the willingness to share with them. The changes that from just being mainly our, I can relate to how you feel, but I can empathize with you.
I can sit in your suffering with you, what I can choose to stand up and leave. It’s not about saying that any of these things are better than the others. It’s about understanding when you express them. Because if you sit with someone in their suffering and choose to leave at one point, I’m not necessarily sure that you’re taking more suffering.
With yourself. I think sometimes we actually leave them with even more, because they might feel, wow. Someone actually cares because we empathic, but we’re not compassionate in order to help them out.
Clément: [00:39:47] Yeah. This reminds me of something that an ex-girlfriend that I had she used to go to this place called the listening post. I think it was called the listening post. It was like a nonprofit organization in a church and they would [00:40:00] have these desks they’d set up and they would have volunteers to just sit there and wait for someone to come in and sit down and start talking about whatever it is that we’re going through.
And but they were encouraged. I’m not sure if it was a rule or if it was just a kind of a guide and it was like, don’t give them an advice or don’t try to help them just listen. So I guess. It’s really nice to offer that. Especially when those people probably have no one that wants to listen to them.
These are homeless people, mostly, or drug addicts or whatever, but what my ex-girlfriend recognized and which is why she stopped doing it, is that the same people keep coming back. And it’s almost as if nothing changes, like they have that same story in their head that they want to tell someone and they are just on repeat.
And it’s like a narrative that they have. It’s this is who I am. And I understood that. I was like yeah, that makes sense. [00:41:00] It’s nice to have that outlet, but until there’s something that is a, unless until there’s a switch that flicks or flips, rather in that person, I don’t think there’s anything that’s going to really change.
There has to be some kind of distinction that takes place. So she left because she didn’t think it was right. But just because you mentioned how empathy is totally different from compassion. I guess that’s my way of visualizing it right. A little bit.
Alex: [00:41:28] Yeah. I Jordan Peterson said, which I’ve loved, you shouldn’t steal other people’s problems.
Yeah. And I think that is key. It’s key to understand where advice goes too far. Because compassion has components of that. It’s important to say that I share your suffering. I’m not going to take it right.
Clément: [00:41:50] You say that when you say that, what you mean, what he meant was don’t try to solve someone else’s problems because then you’re taking away their growth.
Alex: [00:41:59] That’s [00:42:00] one part of it, not a part of it is as well that there is no. You will never be free of suffering, right? That there is a condition of suffering that will follow us till the end of our days. And so if you constantly try to steal that away from people, you will essentially probably leave them worse off in the longer run.
At least that’s my own experience. And it’s my understanding as well from how this is practiced, because compassion is a skill and it’s a skill ill practiced because we’re too caught up in our passion. We too caught up in our own suffering for whatever cost it is that we want to go
Clément: [00:42:40] for.
Hey, I’m really interested in hearing what you have to think about, I hate to bring this back to politics again, but I feel so, so interested in it. And what do you think about the democratic movement right now in the United States, which basically says. We’re going to pay for [00:43:00] you to survive and you don’t have to do anything just live.
Alex: [00:43:05] We’ll take care of it. Yeah. I think it’s a good segue for what we were talking about first of all, because that is definitely part of it, there is there’s no greater motivation than hitting rock bottom lists, as you also know. And if we replaced rock bottom with a mattress that you can sleep on forever is status solution.
I think first of all, I think it’s a solution for some, I don’t think this is a black and white situation and being from Denmark, social welfare and the safety net is something that I’m very constantly when I debate and stuff in quite new FOS. It’s basically rich people complaining about taking care of the ones who don’t want to take care of themselves so on and so forth, but it comes back to the point of.
Two drivers of society’s existence. Right? First one is technological, right? And I’m dead. Sure. That there’ll be a point where people are just, technological obsolescence is going to be a thing it’s already [00:44:00] accelerating towards that notion. So it’s impossible for everybody to remain relevant in crafts.
At some point in time, we’ll just simply have too much technological advancement for everybody to be able to contribute in a meaningful way to society. It’s just not going to be cost efficient. So that means that people will need to pursue other things since that, right? It’s not just the, that human life is not valuable.
I think that’s very extensible. There are other conditions besides the technological pop is that of home personal pursuit of meaning, that some people are not able to take care of them. I think most people are not able to take care of themselves. I think most people make choices based on things that believe are good for them, which unfortunately will overtime just lead to a much worse situation.
And that’s done just saying dumb and poor people. It’s also saying rich and intelligent people.
Clément: [00:44:52] I think that’s a really important thing to mention because a lot of the dysfunctions happen at the top of the ladder,
Alex: [00:44:58] A hundred percent. [00:45:00] So that’s your question. It’s a competent conversation.
Like it would need to start someplace. I think universal basic income is very necessary for people who are just not able to contribute. But if you are disabled, if you’re suffering from some kind of complication that just makes your life impossible to, to live without support, that’s something you should take care of.
And I’ve heard horror stories, especially from the U S about how there is no safe. There is no Inge general insurance policy there. If things go bad for you and let’s face it, things go bad for all of us, right? We can wake up next year and be homeless and lost everything. I think those conditions are not necessarily something we choose for ourselves, but that happens.
If you’re dealt a hand of misfortune, there should be a basic universal coverage plan for us. We all bleed blood that is red at the end of the day. And the Lisa said something great out of this, except that in the end, even the [00:46:00] richest people will be buried. The last trip. They will be better than it’s a shirt with no pockets.
Which means it doesn’t really fucking matter how much wealth you’re going to carry on in the afterlife. We’re not going to be able to spend it anyways. So that is a distribution necessary in the, before afterlife, that basically will help us at least cover for the remaining days that those who can’t cover for themselves.
That’s at least my thoughts. It’s not about giving people who don’t want to work money.
Clément: [00:46:25] People who say rich people don’t roll up to the gates of heaven and it bends
Alex: [00:46:30] well. I
Clément: [00:46:31] mean, cause if I’m going to be so disappointed my, if that’s not how I’m going to go out. You also
Alex: [00:46:36] talking about the nations with the highest number of people believing that angels are real.
Clément: [00:46:41] I might be wrong here. That is a completely, oh my God. I love that topic too. I really do. I love the whole topic of religion and spirituality that’s but getting back to what you said, man, it’s a lot of food for thought what you just said. There’s so much there. [00:47:00] And honestly I’m I feel like.
A child. When I think about these things, right? I feel so overwhelmed by the entire, the entirety of it all, because all I want, if you might’ve noticed, is probably pretty obvious. All I want is for everyone to just get along and for everyone to work together. And for us to just be happy as a right, as simple in this naive as that might sound, that’s basically what I want.
And I’m always trying to figure it out. But you’re right. There needs to be tools to start to chip away at this because without those it’s so difficult to know where to start.
Alex: [00:47:39] You need vocabulary, right? Because love is something we all can agree upon, which is not a good thing, because that means that whatever is disagreeing about the subject is left unanswered.
And I think it’s not such a love is bad, of course, but we need [00:48:00] contrast. We need variance. I think what you’re doing is important and why I like this. I like your podcast is because you’re like a scholar, right? You’re like scholar of the subject of it’s not love. But it’s the perception of how we care about each other.
And I think that perception will never stop being something that’s subjective. And if it’s subjective, we need subjects to talk about it. But I think your responsibility in this is to include all of these different subjects, points of view in a conjoint vocabulary, because what I’m missing and what I see you are trying to set up here clearly understand the problem.
I don’t know what it is, but I believe there is a number of different words, hypotheses statements. They can lead. Problem towards a potential solution. And what I wanted to talk to you about today was like the ones that I’m very, I’m super interested in compassion, [00:49:00] but I think people have an understanding, compassion, empathy, and pity.
I think people have to Al own complete understanding of what that might be. And that’s, it’s just not right. It’s not right to have your standardized I at least want to have us agree. Yeah. Upon a certain amount of points that falls within the brackets of pity, compassion, and empathy. I’m not going to say that I have the single truth to what it might be, and I’m more than happy to be challenged at this point.
But I think once we establish that we can talk about this using these words with a common understanding that it’s reduced to no, at least these buckets with these points of view, then I can understand what you mean. Where do you want to go with things? I can feel you, right? That’s the thing, that’s a good thing about this podcast.
I feel you in it. And I think your message will be heard much clear once. Vocabulary of meaning is established. And I think you’re doing it. You’re doing it because you’re thinking about it everyday. It would be great. I’m curious how [00:50:00] it’s going to be, but it would be great to hear, like we know the problem here are the segments that we can discuss.
I think there’s something there that you master, you just haven’t the parcel hasn’t made up a complete picture. You have the colors put together a complete picture is not there.
Clément: [00:50:19] Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. 100% agree with you. I think that’s one of the reasons why I jumped from so many different subjects and I try to cover it all because I’m looking for something I’m trying to fill this picture out, like this drawing this puzzle.
Alex: [00:50:35] You’re a super provocative used to booze as a way of breaking ice. That’s good. But in order to collect them, you need these bubbles. Because if not, we end up the conversations, become talking about things that we know that the general public disagrees apart, right? Simone Biles like lives matter, political situations, it contrast, and all of them, the best way of my, [00:51:00] from my experience to align ourselves towards a common goal is to allow a vocabulary to be formed that at least we can find points to be agree upon on either side of the spectrum.
Clément: [00:51:12] Yeah. Let me ask you this. What are some of the thoughts that you have on how that happens? What are the buckets that you use or, when you are looking into these kinds of things and how do you view these problems and the solutions to them, or have you not even gotten to that point yet?
I assume you have,
Alex: [00:51:31] That’s a good question. I think. My biggest strength and weakness is my eagerness to let my emotions out when I feel they’re there. That’s why meditation has become such a gift for me because it’s not a way for me to, manage my emotions, but it’s a way for me to not let them manage me.
And I think that contrast has helped me [00:52:00] understand that when I’m challenged on the things that I’m passionate about, my emotions goes up. And I think the reaction that I want to come up with this is to immediately defend my position, but on the contrary, the ability for me to, and I call it outcome that’s actually went as far as buying outcome.
That com because I believe the main ability. In order to thrive in this world is that to outperform you, out-compete you out too smart. You it’s for me to outcome you outcome
Clément: [00:52:34] C a L M. Yeah.
Alex: [00:52:36] Just like you would say, out-compete, out-perform outsmart everything that has to do about me being better than you.
We’ve never talked about this from a position of calmness. My sole responsibility is to make sure that whatever you’re trying to create a panic in me you’re not successful. And what I’m successful with is making you as calm as me. Okay. So that’s a
Clément: [00:52:58] whole [00:53:00] subject right there. Actually. That’s not a subject.
That’s a whole group of subjects because my experience with this is I’m recalling now my challenge with the alcohol addiction. Yeah. I recognize that I would drink my guts out. Not only when I. Feeling sadness or frustration or any number of those negative emotions? I would also drink my guts out when I felt success.
If I was, if I succeeded at anything, I couldn’t handle that emotional health. I was like, it was like, it was just too much for me. I needed to get back to that center. And so I would start drinking and it was such a weird, it was such a weird paradox for me because I felt like, why the fuck am I drinking right now?
I should be happy. I should be. Self-sustaining I don’t need this, but I had to do it because I was, I felt anxious and uncomfortable. Yeah. So outcome is a, it makes a lot of sense to me. Yes. [00:54:00] Calm doesn’t mean docile calm. It doesn’t mean like you’re incapacitated. It just means that you’re clear, right?
You’re put together. Like you can make complex decisions. You can make important decisions without having to come at it from an emotional, which is partly why we’re in a lot of messes at the moment is because we’re so emotional about things. I
Alex: [00:54:22] think you, you got it. And that is exactly why. And as I tell you, it’s never been defined outcome doesn’t exist as a work.
It’s it. As I see it, it’s the biggest mistake in a society that is driven by progress. Simone Biles, before she does all have contesting moves she’s outcome as fuck before you press the gas speed on the Ferrari, you better the outcome, because if you crash it not fight before you have that discussion with your boss or your spouse about that thing that you’re very emotional about.
You better be outcome because if you approach the situation from a point of panic, [00:55:00] you already lost outcome is the condition. We need. Sorry, go
Clément: [00:55:06] ahead. Do you not think that in like extreme sports, for example, like that, that, how does this tie into your philosophy that intense feeling of anxiety and adrenaline rush and all of that?
How does that fit into this though? Because I’ve heard that argued a lot. I do it for the rush or I’m in my zone when I’m, when I feel like I’m on the edge of death kind of thing. And if you’re out calmed, can you still have that experience or does it mean that you’re bypassing
Alex: [00:55:35] it?
Yeah I think it’s, we should be careful to find the condition as something that is solely physiological, like physical in the sense of being related to how our hormones and et cetera, et cetera. I do believe the greatest sportsman in the world are remain. Remain calm and hot, [00:56:00] even given extreme conditions because there is a clarity in how they work.
But I think using the word clarity, actually, I think it’s more about the state of how you are within yourself, right? It’s a, it’s an alignment with, for lack of a better word with being white. Essentially my, the best encounters I’ve had without comb has been in moments where it’s not about me controlling myself.
It’s not about making sure I’m in a specific state of mind, but it’s above me ensuring that I’m at least nowhere else than here right now. And having made peace with that condition or clarity, the next procedure into whatever it is. Usually these are conditions that are very uncertain. So it’s moments that either it has to do with a crisis in the company, over the person or with virus, whatever, it’s not necessarily momentarily, it can be, but it can be a process of longer time.
[00:57:00] Whereas you need to be present in where you are at this moment right now, and understand that this is not about getting from a, to B. This is about being really here all the time with clarity in mind and it can’t be trained. I do believe so. At least that’s what I’m doing, trying to do. That’s the reason I want to make this a practice.
Clément: [00:57:23] meditation
Alex: [00:57:24] is more than me. Oh yeah. It that’s the formal practice. That’s also the trick about meditation. Meditation takes place all the time. It’s a practice of being right. But I’ll call them, has to do unlike the externalities that are dealing with us. It’s a lot about people trying to incur panic in you all conditions, trying to incur panic.
And it’s about understanding that the main conditions or the main reason for you being alive is for you not to panic, you can’t afford them. So that’s the mantra, but you have to be very comfortable about engaging in discomfortable positions, because it’s the closest thing you’ll get to a [00:58:00] situation of panic.
That’s how you, that’s how you work with this condition of alcohol. But it’s not only, obviously it’s not physical only. It’s about how you think of yourself when you’re by yourself, right? That’s also a training, which I know you and me have discussed before. That’s perhaps the hardest training of all accepting the fact that you’re pretty much stuck with yourself, the rest of your life, and you should be pretty calm about them.
Clément: [00:58:25] I want to ask you about that specific facet of what you’ve just discussed, which is, do you believe that we are programmed? From birth in the way that we see the world and ourselves. And is there a point where there’s it’s like you’ve reached terminal velocity, there’s no turning back. Like you are stuck with that program because a lot of the mental conditions, the psychological conditions that we diagnose people with are [00:59:00] terminal in the sense that there’s no known help for people in those situations.
And unfortunately they probably going to live out the rest of their lives with that mentality. And so what do you think about that? Because your approach is palliative to a lot of that, right? I’m assuming before it gets to the point where it’s really too ingrained. I
Alex: [00:59:23] can’t say the mine is the most complex biological machine in our own universe.
I have only my own to relate to as a subject with him, the best, my best understanding of it has been that. And my background in neuroscience as well, of course, I know strangers who, the many dark places that exists in our mind. And I would not be surprised to say that my theory here serves as a tool for those who have a specific amount of control over their mind, or at least a specific amount of insight into [01:00:00] the way they are as humans and the way they’ve been brought up and so on and so forth.
I, I would not be a stranger to understand that some people are just not in control of anything, and there’s just a person locked in a body that moves beyond their own will. Extreme situations of sadness has led me to have at least have a glimpse of the horribles. I will do not only to myself, but to others.
So that being a gate that can be opened to who’s to say who’s to say,
Clément: [01:00:32] I think if like I’m ever going to get over my phobia of clowns, man, that’s really the issue here. I’m asking for a friend I’m asking for a friend and yeah, the my God, man this conversation is a lot more deep than I actually thought we were going to go.
This is amazing, by the way,
Alex: [01:00:49] I only have a few more minutes. My friend, unfortunately,
Clément: [01:00:52] No. And I, and actually I was I’m actually, my brain is like is feeling like I probably should call it because I’m not going to be able to lend any more [01:01:00] quality to this. Cause it’s really got me thinking.
But no, I appreciate it. I really appreciate you as a person. You were really thoughtful guy. And it’s just challenging talking to you, man. Honestly, I’m on my toes all the time. I’m like
Alex: [01:01:14] being out combed essentially. And I think that the condition that you are showing towards me is that you’re not afraid.
I think fear is as much a friend as it is a foe and talking about these things and not knowing where they’re going to go. I’m in the same boat, man. I’m putting my ourselves out of here publicly talking about things I have in my head that I haven’t really shared with anyone. These are all just hypotheses that I’m working on with my own life.
And that’s, as far as that goes.
Clément: [01:01:39] Yeah. I think that level of transparency is what’s going to help to bring us back together, into trust in each other. There’s so much distrust today. I think the, one of the main ways we’re going to bring that back is just to let it all go, let go of that, W, how would you call it?
It was like, you’re [01:02:00] building up this barrier to what’s really going on behind the scenes and to just let it go and just share, don’t and when people see that you’re willing to be that courageous and, they might say, oh I’ll give it a shot too. I’ve seen that happen in my own experience.
People react to some of the things that I say in post, and they’re like you helped me to get over that or talk about that, and I’m grateful for it. And it’s rewarding. So I appreciate you really do. And I’m curious to see what happens without con it’s. It’s a great concept. It’s it really is a great, we don’t get taught that in school.
It’s essential. No,
Alex: [01:02:34] but it’s always there. Panic is always with us. There’s always a sense of uncertainty. We’ve never been able to relate to owning a calmness in that regard. Outcome is a tool and I’ll be happy to share more with you once I get into it. I think for now, especially those for my own condition here it’s the world has never been more uncertain.
I think that this right. And I think the reason for it is because we are informed. [01:03:00] And so as we get more informed, we’ll become more uncertain. So we need something to counter balance that, and I think conversations like this is at least an ability for us to understand that people are passionate about this one, we call it unleashed love.
And so the challenge okay so how do we even talk about this? How do we only slob? What are the vocabularies, right? What are the conditions that I need to create within myself in order to be more loving? And I think you’re doing a God’s gift here, man. Because it’s not going to end.
Clément: [01:03:30] No, it’s not going to end. I’m going to have a kid so I can pass the torch on.
That’s what she said.
Thanks, bro. I appreciate it. And yeah have an amazing day and we’ll catch each other soon.
Alex: [01:03:49] Thanks. Ma’am you take care, bro.
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